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The case moved from a concern of who did it to can you really convict them? And because of racial prejudice, it was a huge challenge, and lots of people think that the residents would never found guilty fellow white males for eliminating an Osage Indian (all kinds of murders). DAVIES: What occurred in the first trial? GRANN: And the tragedy and stunning to Tom White was that it ended in a hung jury, and proof later on revealed that there had been a fancy conspiracy to obstruct justice consisting of purchasing a juror.
GRANN: Jury tampering. DAVIES: Yeah. And possibly most heartbreaking is that this involved a male who had actually ended up being extremely near even married Osage women and had betrayed those relationships. GRANN: These were deeply intimate crimes. And it's what makes this so barbaric. These were crimes dedicated by people who the victims relied on, many cases thought they loved, and it included a level of betrayal, an almost Shakespearean level of dishonesty of hiding your face, hiding the conspiracy.
I could never totally fathom what that needs to have resembled for her. DAVIES: It was in truth Mollie Burkhart's own partner Ernest Burkhart who was found to be a part of the conspiracy. GRANN: He was discovered to be a part of the conspiracy. It was someone who Mollie believed enjoyed her.
And she had to sit through the trials and listen to the evidence presented and learn the tricks of her spouse, that the tricks of this murder were best inside her house. And it was utterly devastating to her as anyone would picture. DAVIES: David Grann's book is "Killers Of The Flower Moon." We'll continue our discussion after a break.
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(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) DAVIES: We're talking with David Grann. He is a personnel writer for The New Yorker. His new book about the murders on the Osage American-Indian reservation in Oklahoma in the 1920s is called "Killers Of The Flower Moon." You understand, it's interesting since you talked with grandchildren of this age, and they would bring you files and in many cases stories that they had actually heard of crimes that we didn't learn about.
That's exactly best. So Mary Jo Webb was somebody who I satisfied. She's in her 80s now. She is among the Osage seniors, and I got to her home - what kinds of murders are there. And she had actually pulled out a box of files, and she informed me about the death of her grandfather who had been run over, who had actually been poisoned.
This went on in a lot of families I met, and they would give me the files, they would offer me the tracks of proof to pursue - lands of murders. What you begin to recognize, the deeper you dig, is that this was not a criminal activity about who did it as much as who didn't do it - that there was a culture of killing occurring during this period which there were scores if not numerous murders.
Do you have any insight into that? GRANN: No, I imply, they lived in the neighborhood, and they provided a specific face and concealed frequently what they had to do with. This was a. DAVIES: The white guy you indicate. Yeah. GRANN: Yeah, the white male. And this was a time of great instability within the Osage Nation because of a lot wealth, and it was a period where much of the traditions were vanishing.
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And it probably made this more possible. What is so difficult to fathom is that the criminal offenses included a calculating quality where you had to befriend these individuals, you needed to pretend to love them, you needed to oversleep their home, sometimes you had children with them and after that you methodically targeted them.
And there was a complicity to these killings since they included not just the perpetrators. They involve morticians who would then conceal the crimes. They involve lawmen who then would not investigate them. They include next-door neighbors who would never ever speak up, reporters who would not dig into the criminal offenses.
